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Here’s the first of three clips from the upcoming season finale of Supernatural, Lucifer Rising! In this first clip, it looks like Dean has given up hope, but Bobby has something to say about family that will make you both laugh and cry.
Click the “Read More” tag below to see the other two clips.
Sam is a changed man….sounds like there’s no going back now.
Finally, the angels talk with Dean about the final plan of attack.
(I’d add that if you’re using self-identification for your categories, as opposed to agreement/disagreement with Bobby, then they lose a lot of meaning in terms of determining who’s more vitriolic… those who dislike what Bobby did here or those who didn’t. For example, if I were a Samgirl who liked what Bobby did, I could self-identify as a Deangirl and then bash all the Bobby-critics, which would allow you, Jen, to put me in the “vitriolic Deangirl” column. So, bear that in mind.)
Jen, I was actually responding to Leah, who was confused about my conclusions. I think your post was stuck in moderation for a while, because I didn’t see it. Here.
“Out of those 33 I found 19 of them were from people who sided with Dean, not by whether they agreed or disagreed with what Bobby said, but by what they themselves actually said in the post. That works out to 57.58% of vitriolic posts coming from Dean fans.”
That’s a different method of analysis than I used (aside from just reading all of the posts). What you’re comparing is total vitriolic posts, divided into Dean fan and Sam fan. What was I doing was comparing the percentage of vitriolic Dean fans (ie, count up the number of Dean fan posts and look at the % that are vitriolic) compared to the same statistic for Sam fans.
In fact, because we used different angles to analyze, our results could be totally consistent… because if there are, say, 60 Deangirls and 30 Samgirls, and there are 12 vitriolic posts, 6 from each camp, that would mean that only 10% of Deangirls were vitriolic, compared to 20% of Samgirls.
Do you have the total post counts for Dean posts and Sam posts, so that we could work out those numbers? Because we should really do that, if you want to confirm that you actually did put a hole in my theory, rather than lending support to it. It could honestly go either way.
1109 days ago
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Cas girls are so much easier to please. We’re happy when he gets more than a 3-minute scene.
Between the Fringe, Lost and Supernatural finales this week, I’m totally dying of anticipation.
Can’t wait until Thursday! Personally, I love this story arc even with all its faults but it sure brings out the crazy in Supernatural fans.
I’m actually a little bit annoyed at the amount of time the show spends on Sam and Dean drama this year though. I’d rather have seen them running around protecting seals, guns a-blazing or the occasional scene of Castiel and the angels trying to stop the seals from breaking. It’s a little ridiculous that the world is ending and all the action takes place off-screen while Sam/Dean are psychoanalyzed up and down.
S1-3 brotherly relationship – shorter, more poignant scenes that doesn’t make it seem like the Winchesters are the center of the universe
S4 brotherly relationship – long-winded melodrama that takes itself way too seriously
JustMe: “If you think Sam is so badly treated, why are you still watching the show? ”
Mostly because in my opinion, my feelings that Sam has been treated badly only began in this season. Yes, read that again. I’m throwing another wrench in your works at generalizing all Sam fans as evil and half-brained. I loved the first two seasons, and I liked the third, and even then, Bela was my main complaint about the third season. I was even pleased with Lazarus Rising, and in fact the first seeds of dissatisfaction weren’t sown until In the Beginning. Ah, there I go, sliding into your nice little mold on how a Sam fan should feel. I remember a hue and cry going up from the Dean fans camp when Mystery Spot dared to both focus on Sam and *gasp* cut Dean out of the episode for 12 whole minutes! Fast forward a half season or so and when the Sam fans get upset out of him getting a grand total of 42 seconds of screen time in an episode, suddenly we’re all whiny jerks. Right. Not buying it. It’s easy to like things when they go your way. Couple that with the fact that they still haven’t given us a satisfactory answer as to WHY Sam was cut from that episode (No, Jared wasn’t doing F13 reshoots, that’s been proven as concretely as possible. Not to mention the fact that both Jensen and Mitch Pileggi said in separate interviews, at separate times, that Jared was in Hawaii, on vacation. Don’t begrudge the man a vacation, but if he was available to shoot, he should have been in the episode. If it was for personal reasons, then maybe it would have been best to just say “It was for personal reasons” instead of trying to obscure the issue. Or say nothing at all, and quit trying to blow smoke by claiming reshoots that no one can seem to prove even existed.) Even then, as angry as I was about that, I was willing to let it slide as an abberation. Only, see, it wasn’t.
I’m actually in the process of clocking screen times for this season, for Dean and Sam only. *cue the cries of “OMG, what an idiot! Get a life! It’s just a TV show!”* I’m doing it because I’m sick and tired of hearing people swear up and down that the fans who don’t agree with them are making it up. We’re not. And I don’t give a flying fish if you want to claim that In the Beginning was all about Sam even though he wasn’t there. The fact remains, he wasn’t there, and if the tables were turned the fuss from the other side would be even louder. At present, I’ve just finished with In the Beginning, and started on Metamorphosis. And at that mark, Dean already has over 50 minutes more screentime. But you know, I’m sure I’m just making that up too.
Personally, I’m not going to call you a bad fan for loving Dean to the exclusion of all other characters. That’s now how I choose to view the show, but you’re allowed to watch however you want, just as I am.
I do, however, think that your fan to fan relating could use some refining. Calling fellow fans disingenous, half-brained, and claiming that their arguments have no merit simply because they do not agree with what you think, or what you see in the show is not a good way to communitcate with other people.
At the risk of being called false and underhanded again, I have another question. So you’re saying that, if Bobby had chosen to chew Dean out about anything else in the exact same manner, you’d be okay with it? What if he’d chosen to express those same opinions in a vastly different way? Maybe a kind, quiet sit down to gently point out the way he saw it all? And you totally glossed over my point that maybe what Bobby wanted to accomplish was to make Dean angry, to give him the fire to fight. What better way to achieve that at the moment than to bring up Sam and the way he’s handling things?
The truth stings, does it? I can’t say those things about Sam fans, because I haven’t seen it, much like I notice you decline to agree that what I say is true. Despite being a fan of the show, I didn’t get into online fandom until the middle to end of Season Two. So I have no idea what Sam fans were saying about Devil’s Trap. I do know that Sam fans have always been the minority, and remain so today, so yes, I and other fans like myself do feel the need to defend him if we see a chance to. I can only speak for myself, but personally, I don’t hate Castiel. I’m not a fan, per se, but I like him. Rather, liked him before the new ice cold persona took hold. Last week’s episode didn’t make me that happy, but that was more due to a lack of Sam AND Dean than anything else. Notice that? I don’t like it when Dean gets left out either. I’ve always loved Bobby. Always, ever since the first time we saw him. I would love to know about these numerous episodes where we get so much insight into Sam’s head and what he thinks though. I must have missed those episodes. And wow, a whole half an episode. That counts as an eyeful now? Not to mention the fact that we were left wondering what in the hell Sam had done all summer until the 9th episode of a 22 episode season? Oh yeah, Sam fans are totally being ridiculous. What’s that you say? That there’s been little to no further insight on how Sam got to where he is now? No, Wee!Sam and Mary hallucinations don’t count. I want to know how he got started on the blood drinking in the first place. Plenty of fans, even Dean fans, will come out and admit, some without prompting, that the show has been very unbalanced this season. Notice that again? I said THIS season. Not the entire show. Not forever. Just this season. Though I have to say, calling Season Three all about Sam is a laugh. The only purpose Sam had in that entire season was saving Dean. So if you want to try to prop up your argument that In the Beginning was all about Sam when he wasn’t even in it, try admitting that the third season was all about Dean, no matter who was on screen. Reviews, ratings and non-fan attention have NO direct bearing on the quality of a show. Some of the best shows on TV have been the most underrated and underappreciated.
Ali – “Out of about 30 posts, roughly 2/3 were Dean fans and 1/3 were Sam fans. 13% of the 2/3 that were Dean fans were heated, and whatever that other percentage was…. 55%?… of the 1/3 of Sam fans were getting heated.”
I don’t know if you missed my post, or are choosing to ignore it because it blows a hole in your theory, but I analyzed the first 111 comments in this thread (all there were at the time) and found a different story. The first 30 posts are a poor indicator of fan to fan bickering, since there’s hardly enough posted for anyone to argue with. I found 33 posts that were heated with other fans. Out of those 33 I found 19 of them were from people who sided with Dean, not by whether they agreed or disagreed with what Bobby said, but by what they themselves actually said in the post. That works out to 57.58% of vitriolic posts coming from Dean fans. And as I stated before, I included my posts in those 33. If you think I’m lying, I’ll send you the spreadsheet where I analyzed it and you can look for yourself.
***I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that there is no pleasing Dean fan***
I can say the same about Sam fans with exact examples. Will it make things even?
***I think Ruby is either Lucifer himself ***
But of course because only Saint Sammy can fuck Lucifer, LOL.
Whaouh is it war between Supernatural’s fans ? I’m a Dean’s girl but I do not want to see a show all about Dean , or a Dean & Cas show . I like Sammy , I love Dean and I like very much Cas . It’s the interaction between Dean & Sammy that made this show interesting . A show all about Sammy , a show all about Dean wouldn’t be interesting
And I do not agree at all with Sammy strangling Dean . Gosh , to strangle a person to tell him/her to go away ? You’re scared me !
***Jen: I have to say though, that if you truly think Sam is a Marty Stu, I don’t know why you’re even bothering to watch.***
I watch because there is another character on the show who is the most intriguing fictional character to come along since Mulder and Scully. I know it’s heresy to say that publicly in this fandom but my primary interest in the show is Dean. I’ve no doubt you and others will start screeching bad fan but you know what? My money is just as good as the the samfanatics and the so-called bibros when I go to conventions, buy the episodes on itunes or the novels, etc., etc. And I’m really tired of being told how I should watch the show or how I should feel about certain characters aby people who seem to think they are somehow morally superior because they are in the minority.
***Jen: I also don’t know what you’re watching, because a less Mary Sue like character I have never seen. I propose a trade. I think Dean fans and Sam fans should have to swap TV sets. That way Sam fans can get this version of the show that just loves him, and Dean fans can watch the episodes of the Dean show that seems to be playing on Sam fans sets.***
I’ll pass thanks. The version of the show the samfans seem to watch would bore me to tears. As far as the Mary Sue issue, well everyone seems to have a different definition which proves their point. But for me, it’s a character who is always talked up and often protected at the expense of other characters. It’s one of the primary reasons I prefer Dean to Sam. The show rarely coddles him. Instead it shines a spotlight on every single flaw he has, large or small. I had high hopes for Sam this season because it seemed that they were finally going to get to the meat of his dark arc and I thought the writers would finally be willing to let the character own some of his flaws. I still hope that will ultimately be the case. But those hopes are dwindling rapidly with clips like this one where Bobby once again lays all the blame squarely on Dean, with the whitewashing of Ruby’s body, with the need to turn Dean into a torturer who was so weak that he broke the first seal, with Kripke sending Dean back in time and making him responsible for the YED discovered Mary and started the Winchesters on this journey. Now I am really hoping there is something more to this than just making sure that whatever Sam does, Dean’s actions will be worse but the constant harping on Dean’s weakness being the cause of Sam’s fall, really isn’t giving me any faith.
***Jen: If he’s not too fragile to handle it, why is everyone so incensed over it being said? If Dean can handle it, which I’m sure he can, there’s no need to be so furious over it. Upset, sure. Livid, no.***
Well I think this point has been addressed over and over again so the question seems a little disingenuous and once again a false representation of the arguments presented. But the issue isn’t that Bobby spoke harshly to Dean or tried to kick his ass into action. It’s that his entire rant was riddled with accusations against Dean’s character that are patently false. They also seem to once again be supporting Sam’s contention that Dean is weak and therefore laying the responsibility for Sam’s actions on Dean. Sam had to go bad because his pathetic brother can’t get the job done. Ironically, this weak pathetic creature is still expected to chase after Sam and save him somehow.
My anger isn’t actually with Bobby but with Kripke for assassinating a beloved character in order to prop Sam once again.
***Jen: I’d be happy to address your point. But I guess Uriel doesn’t count? Because he made it clear how he felt about Sam, and he didn’t hold back. Or if you want to go to last season, we’ve got Bela calling Sam “a bit of a drama queen”. Or Dean leveling what was clearly an insult when he told Sam that he was just like John? Or Dean calling Sam a monster? Or Dean telling Sam that if he didn’t know him, he would want to hunt him? Or how John bitched Sam out for not shooting him? Or how Dean chewed Sam out about how Sam reacted to John’s death? Shall I go on? How about when Dean punched Sam because of their fight about trusting Gordon? Just because Bobby hasn’t personally gotten a chance to chew Sam out doesn’t mean no one in the history of ever has never said an unkind word to Sam.***
Thanks for reminding me about Uriel. I did forget about his little speech to Sam. Of course he turned out to be a bad guy so hardly a credible judge of Sam’s character. Unlike the good guys like Bobby and Missouri who seem much more credible when they belittle and demean Dean. Is the audience supposed to think he deserves it because they are good people? I really don’t know.
As for Gordon, he was batshit crazy and nobody took his view of Sam seriously and Bela, may have called Sam a drama queen (though quite frankly that’s not really much of an insult to me) but she also said on more than one occasion that Sam was smart while running down Dean’s intelligence every chance she got.
Dean and Sam arguing accusing each other of whatever doesn’t really count for me since anyone with half a brain would understand that they are unreliable narrators and projecting their own views of themselves and each other. That is completely different from a trusted third party such as Bobby mouthing insults largely formulated by the Deanhaters. The show has never done that with Sam that I can recall and I sincerely doubt that it ever will.
***If the show loved Sam so much as you say, wouldn’t it be far, far easier to make him a true Lana Lang and make him either never intentionally do anything wrong, or never make him do anything wrong when he wasn’t possessed or otherwise out of control of his actions? That would be much easier and less time consuming then giving him the bad, evil things to do and then coming up with ways to absolve his guilt for them. Which the show hasn’t done. They haven’t excused Sam’s blood habit. They haven’t excused the fact that he slept with a demon. Or the fact that he’s voluntarily giving in to the evil. They’ve done nothing but showcase that. I don’t see anyone on the show blaming Dean for Sam’s addiction. Not one person. Not even Sam. I don’t even see Dean blaming himself for it.***
Well this is not the show that I am watching. See my comments above. But I have throw your own question back at you. If you think Sam is so badly treated, why are you still watching the show?
***Jen: Let me throw a further wrench in the works. I love Sam. He’s my favorite character on this show, and he always has been. And he is guilty as hell for every single choice he’s made. He holds that responsiblity, no one else. He has reasons for his actions, but they do not excuse, or whitewash those actions, and he is still responsible for them. Not Dean. Not Bobby. Not John. Sam. Sam is responsible for them.***
Thank you for saying that. I honestly have not seen many Samfans admit this. At best it’s a throw-away comment like of course Sam has done some things wrong followed by a litany of all the many ways Dean has failed him.
***Jen: I also love Dean. Not as much as Sam, but I still love him. And he’s just as guilty for all of the choices he’s made. Just Dean. No one else. Not Sam, not John, not Bobby. Like Sam, Dean has reasons for what he has done. But reasons are not excuses for him either. So the guilt remains with him.***
I agree but where I’ve seen Dean acknowledge his guilt and sorrow and I’ve seen other people call Dean on these things, I have yet to see the same from or about Sam. It’s the imbalance that drives me crazy.
***Jen: I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that there is no pleasing Dean fans. First it was “But Dean’s just a prop! He’s just a sidekick because he has no place in the mytharc! The show’s all about Sam! All about Sam’s dork sided density! Dean needs more of a part in the mytharc! We want more Dean!” Now in the current season Dean has a.) gotten a significant part in the mytharc and b.) gotten more screen time and storylines than any other character and yet STILL all we hear is “Not enough Dean! Poor Dean! He gets blamed for everything!” Good God! What do you want? Will you not be happy until Dean and Castiel are the only characters on the show? And would you then turn on Castiel if he dared to disagree with Dean? I don’t understand this “you’re either with us or against us” mentality either. Just because I don’t think Dean is the most awesome person in the history of the universe, and refuse to fall down and worship at his feet, does not mean that I hate him.***
And here it is. The Evil Deangirl rant. You know you arguments would hold a hell of a lot more merit if you acknowledged that samgirls do exactly the same thing. They have been complaining about Sam being marginalized since Devil’s Trap even though the entire story revolved around him for the first three years. They wanted evil!Sam because Jared finally got a bit of attention for his acting with BUABS and all they’ve done this season is scream about how Kripke is destroying his character. We don’t know what’s going on inside his head and his story is happening off screen, they claim despite numerous episodes where he tells us himself what is going on inside his head and we got more than an eyeful of how he ended up in Ruby’s bed and as her BFF. He was left out of ITB they cry, even though the entire story was about the origin of his dark destiny. People don’t love Sam enough, Jared needs more attention. They hate Castiel, they hated Bobby until he suddenly became Sam’s biggest fangirl. Samfans are just as guilty as Deanfans of being perpetually dissatisfied. And they have hijacked every blog and article with their complaints even when the show was getting rave reviews and more attention than it has ever gotten.
If I wasn’t so mad a Kripke right now for ruining Bobby, I’d feel sorry for him because he really can’t win with either side.
Gosh..its fascinating to read these comments. Its almost like everyone believes these two characters are real people! love the passion :) I am a big big Dean fan..so let me state that upfront. But I think Dean would not be so fascinating if Sam wasn’t around. So, for all our sakes I hope Sam lives through this finale and I think he will. The interaction between these brothers is the bread-n-butter for Kripke. About the theory..I don’t think Lilith and Ruby are on the same team. I think Ruby is either Lucifer himself or his uno henchwoman. And Sam is being prepared to be able to handle Lucifer in his body. Lilith wants Sam dead before that can happen because Lilith is actually competing with Lucifer to dominate Hell. So, Dean needs to stop Sam from killing Lilith to stop Lucifer from posessing Sam and at the same time protect Sam from Ruby and Lilith. Gosh…I think Dean is the only person who can do it if at all because he is brave and he loves Sammy more than himself. But then, what will Lilith do to Sam and Dean if she lives. Thats where the angels come in. We have not seen all there powers yet. They seem to only be reacting untill now and not acting beforehand and changing the situation. I guess S5 will be about Sam n Dean and the angel’s powers.
Last but not the least…I just love the Dean character and Jensen playing Dean. Its such a treat to watch him.
“Isn’t his contradicting your own claim that most Supernatural fans are Dean fans? Or are you just referring to the heated part? In that case, your whole theory is based on subjective interpretation of what heated is all about.”
Leah… not sure where you’re getting that from. Out of about 30 posts, roughly 2/3 were Dean fans and 1/3 were Sam fans. 13% of the 2/3 that were Dean fans were heated, and whatever that other percentage was…. 55%?… of the 1/3 of Sam fans were getting heated.
It’s really simple, so I’m not sure where you’re getting confused. But yeah, scoring for heatedness is always going to involve some level of subjectivity… in this case, I scored the posts based on whether they contained angry words directed at other fans, as opposed to opinions about the show.
“And then ranting off on how poorly the character that’s described as the only righteous man is treated.”
What? He was never described this way. He was described as the first righteous man that broke in Hell. There are lots of other righteous people who AREN’T in Hell… because righteous people don’t tend to end up there.
Is that really the basis of your Dean-hate? Because I think you’ve seriously misunderstood what the show was trying to tell you.
lol @ Bobby, Princess!
Okay, I’m not team Jen’s side…
“I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that there is no pleasing Dean fan. First it was “But Dean’s just a prop! He’s just a sidekick because he has no place in the mytharc! The show’s all about Sam! All about Sam’s dork sided density! Dean needs more of a part in teh mytharc! We want more Dean!” Now in the current season Dean has a.) gotten a significant part in the mytharc and b.) gotten more screen time and storylines than any other character and yet STILL all we hear is “Not enough Dean! Poor Dean! He gets blamed for everything!” Good God! What do you want? Will you not be happy until Dean and Castiel are the only characters on the show? And would you then turn on Castiel if he dared to disagree with Dean? I don’t understand this “you’re either with us or against us” mentality either. Just because I don’t think Dean is the most awesome person in the history of the universe, and refuse to fall down and worship at his feet, does not mean I hate him.”
…Brilliant..couldn’t of said it better myself. ;)
Yeah Rachel, because nothing says I love you like strangling a person. Sam did it to show Dean he was boss, period. Dean was down at the time and Sam purposely strangled him and then let go and got all arrogant.
I agree though, Dean should let Sam go and have Sam face the consequences of his own actions and decisions. And let Sam come to him this time, instead of chasing after him. Let Sam realize just how much Dean did for him and how Sam thanked him by lying, sneaking around with a demon and calling his brother weak and useless.
Frankly, Sam’s not that good of an actor, to have orchestrated that entire beatdown out of the goodness of his heart. From his “STOP BOSSING ME AROUND, DEAN!” and his shuddered attempt to regain control of himself, to his soft, dangerous, “Say it”, to the punches and the strangling and the grimacing and snarling, to the “You don’t know me. You never did, you never will”, I don’t think that stuff was orchestrated at all. And I think that his comments in these clips (“He was right to say that, after what I did” and his recognizance that he’s becoming something else and losing control of himself) bear this out.
I thought Sam beat Dean’s ass down on purpose to make Dean give up and leave him alone – he wanted Dean to not follow him and try to stop him, and if he believed Sam was a monster, maybe he’d finally let Sam go.
Dean seriously needs some understanding. Doesn`t seem like anyone is inclined to give this to him. To defend what Sam has done and what Bobby has said… Nope, can`t to that!
Sam strangled Dean to show him he was more powerful than him, wasn’t trying to kill him.
Quote from The Monster at the End of the Book “although for fans they sure do complain a lot”
NUFF SAID!
‘He can do it. Even if he’s doing it while bawling his poor little eyes out, but he has to fight’
Dean can and will . Strange that for people it’s totally unforgivable that Dean punches twice his brother and that it’s totally okay that this same little brother tried to STRANGLE him . Punches were enough , and Dean of course deserved it ? Both have their responsabilities in the failures of their relationship but punches from Dean or Sammy won’t make it better .