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Here’s the first of three clips from the upcoming season finale of Supernatural, Lucifer Rising! In this first clip, it looks like Dean has given up hope, but Bobby has something to say about family that will make you both laugh and cry.
Click the “Read More” tag below to see the other two clips.
Sam is a changed man….sounds like there’s no going back now.
Finally, the angels talk with Dean about the final plan of attack.
Jesus f***ing Christ! All of you, who are bickering back and forth – BACK IT UP…Back the hell up! Not just on this site, but wherever you are in virtual space. You know what the problem is? You’ve made this show, your life. Too much free time. Balance yourself, dammit!
Kripke is a creative genius, the show is awesome – I love Sam and Dean. Enjoy it, enjoy them, have a little fun, be loyal, get your groove on, get a little drowned in it – then get the hell out of the damn pool, AND DO SOMETHING ELSE! Let Kripke, Jared, Jensen, etc. tell the story. Don’t get SO steeped in your own presumptuous perceptions, of the show. While some good points are made – many are just plain off, on errant tangents. Therefore, half the time -you argue over things that aren’t even there, in the first place. Listen, see, learn, and consider…talk a little less.
The self-reference episode was so on point. For people who call themselves fans – ya’ll sure do complain alot. Over-identifying, much? I don’t know. But whatever it is – stop it! What WOULD be acceptable comments, opinions, ideas, complaints, passion, etc. – is just taken SO damn far. TOO far. To the point where it defeats its own purpose…its ridiculous. Stand back, and just let the show be. Its a damn good show. The best, I think television has ever seen. These guys BUST THEIR ASSES, giving us this show. I personally appreciate everything about the show…including its very real portrayal of real personalities, real relationships, real struggles – personal and interpersonal, and the real gray areas and imperfections one experiences in real life. All that the show raises – is to make us stir, ponder, appreciate, relate…enjoy. Not bitch and whine and argue and fight – like idiots in front of some daytime television judge, or talkshow host! And definitely not to go overboard, like mental patients, off their medication.
You are still part of the fandom – and I love you guys, I do. But damn. This shit is EVERYWHERE. It breaks my heart and pisses me off, at the same time. Don’t you get tired of it – or ever stop to say, “What the hell…?” Some of you are teasing insanity! Don’t live through the show, like a soap opera coach potato, without a life. You’re so close to it, your blind. Back up…so you can see clearly, and more fully appreciate – the deliberate dynamics of a matchless television series. And – End. …Love you. :)
Hey “nanceinthepants” I really agree with you, what you wrote fully describe what is the show…Congratulations !!!
I’m very anxious for the new season !!!
I’m not going to critize them. They’re only human.
And Sam was angry- I mean what Dean said- it was painful.
But that doesn’t justify what Sam was doing.
But there brothers.
Family doesn’t just go away.
Sam hasn’t gone evil.
They have to work this out.
Definitely looking forward to season five.
Lucifer rising?
Sam being possibly the meat suit for Lucifer.
And Dean probably on the I have to kill Sam path b/c he’s Lucifer.
Well that’s what I deducted from angels
hope theres another season.it ended with lucifer rising. i cant believe it ended like that. but it was brillant how killing lilith was the last seal and she led sam right into it. basically the angels and demonds have a little game, bring hell on on then its paradise if the angels win. i never knew that Dean was never suppose to kill lilith, but lucifer .
Sam vs. Dean
Wow, when did this become a discussion about who the better brother is?? First off, both characters are phenomenal and without one the show would not be good. Secondly, they both have had their own “demons” to face, so to speak, and neither are “angels”. Dean, yes he has started the apocalypse. Bad Dean, BAD! Sammy, yes, he’s sexing demons while drinking their blood. Kinky and bad! But both characters have suffered the beatings of others not to mention the beatings from themselves. Sam fans I ask you to remember, Dean, is a constant tortured soul who will never find happiness because he wouldn’t know what it looked like if it was naked and spread eagle on top of the Impala. He loves his brother more than life itself (obviously) and would do anything for the people close to him in his life despite the fact that he takes no shortage of “god, you really do suck” and “do what you’re told, bitch” comments from the Angels. Not to mention his own brother thinks he is weak and incapable of handling what’s in front of him (I ask you…how much would that suck?) Oooh and how short our memory is Dean fans…do we not remember back to the last season when Sammy was hunted down by his fellow Hunters for reasons that were beyond his control. It’s not his fault that YED (or Azazel for those paying close attention) put demon blood in him. Or let’s talk about when Dean said, “Sammy, if I didn’t know you, I’d hunt you!”?!?! That’s pretty screwed up. I don’t think Kripke’s playing any favorites, I think the boys are each following the only course left to them. After all, this is a show about Ghosts, DEMONS, vampires, etc… They are suppose to be treated badly, this is not a happy show!! Funny at times, absolutely, but not happy. It’s dramatic and painful. The first episode we see Sam’s girlfriend and mother burning in flames on the ceiling. That should have clued everyone in that this is not a happy show. It would be like 24 fans complaining because Jack Bauer kills copious amounts of people in every episode. It’s not meant to be happy!
And as a side note to everyone quit being petty, both actors are getting equal and quality amounts of screen time. I’m sure if you asked Jensen or Jared they would request less considering that most of the show is filmed with them in every seen. (Not that I would like to see less of them mind you, but the shooting hours are ridiculous). Both boys are flawed and the final scores aren’t in yet on who the more “evil” brother is. Sam is close to going round the bend, and he strangled Dean, I know. But that doesn’t mean he can’t/won’t come back. And the drama of this, is what makes the show so compelling.
To Be a Hero or Not to be a Hero…
What is a hero exactly? Many would probably say a honorable, self-sacrificing individual. I say, hero’s are boring! They are one dimensional characters who, I personally, wouldn’t want to watch 4 seasons of. Sam and Dean are the anti-hero’s and anti-hero’s are not perfect and they don’t finish things up with a nice pretty bow. They’re angry, they’re damaged and can sometimes make a mess of things but despite it all, they get the job done for the greater good. Both Dean AND Sam fit that description. Now, it’s in their own unique way, but this is what Kripke has always intended for these characters. They are fulfilling his vision of the Obi-Wan and Anakin of the small screen. So enjoy it and quit getting all pissy because the boys aren’t sharing that “brotherly love” anymore.
Bobby – the get your s_*t together or else Father Figure
Bobby is a fantastic character who always helps bring the boys back to center and comes through in a pinch. Those of you turning on Bobby because he yelled at Dean (cry me a frickin river), I am going to assume you are 12 years old and have yet to realize that every adult needs a good kick in the pants every now then. He loves both brothers and wants to see them back together just as much as the fans of the show do. Bobby is awesome and I sincerely hope he doesn’t die – nuff said.
Ruby – the Jar-Jar Binks of the show
Okay, I know I’m going to get yelled at for this one but Ruby really isn’t that bad of a character. She’s important to the story and I understand why Kripke has kept her around. She is instrumental in facilitating the rift between Sam and Dean (which I know is why many of you do not like her) but again, it’s what has helped make the show reach unimaginable depth for series called “Supernatural”. That being said, I wasn’t pleased when they decided to switch actors who portrayed Ruby but it does make sense. Kripke needed Sam to fully accept Ruby as a person in his life and for Sam to do that Ruby needed to subdue his conscience of “don’t steal that live girl’s body!”. What I like about the Ruby character is, I don’t think we’ve gotten the full picture of Ruby’s end game. I think it will be interesting to see where her character goes in Season 5. So I say, Rock On Kripke!
Let Me Sum Up…
I’m neither a Dean or Sam girl. I did start watching the show in Season 1 because as I was flipping through the channels I recognized Jensen Ackles as the guy who played Alec on the show Dark Angel. But so the Sam/Jared Padlecki fans don’t yell at me for being a “Dean Girl”, I started watching old episodes of the Gilmore Girls just because Jared was in it. My point, I love both characters equally and honestly believe that Kripke is taking the show in a fantastic direction. It’s painful to watch Sam turn on Dean as it was painful to watch Dean breakdown that “I’ma badass” exterior and see how vulnerable, maybe even weak, when he was when he came back from hell. I am excited and eagerly waiting to see how Kripke and the rest of the writing staff round out this epic battle of good vs. evil. My advice to other fans is to calm down, pump up the ac/dc and enjoy the ride because I’m sure Kripke’s got a lot more in store for these boys and we’ve only begun to see the “genesis” of this apocalypse…
Yeah, fans of a character don’t like characters who are assholes to him. *shock!* *gasp!* Guess what… the Sam fans I know didn’t think much of Bobby either until this clip. They thought he didn’t love Sam as much as he loved Dean, so he was just a jerk. Bobby wasn’t even MEAN TO SAM, he just didn’t act like Sam was the center of the universe. What a bastard!
But yeah, you never make more friends for a man than when you abuse him unjustly, so the saying goes. (And before you all go crying about those terms, it’s a quotation, and “abuse” in the older sense of the term, ie, “be a jerk to”.) And since Dean bears the brunt of an awful lot of in-show criticism (he’s stupid, he’s needy, he’s weak, he’s pathetic, he’s mindless), he gets an equal portion of fan support. That’s just how these things go.
***Jen: What one fan says is no more irrefutable truth than what another says. As far as the truth I was referring to, since you’ve been so quick to point out where I myself fall into the mold of Samfans, perhaps you’d be fair enough to do the same for yourself? I’ll leave that up to you.***
Yup I’m a proud EDG. Never denied it, not going to apologize for it and I’m not going to pretend that I love both boys equally just to pacify the samfans who are just vitriolic but just fewer in number.
***Seriously – you are so right. A few nutcases have been taken in by Jensen’s pretty face and forgotten that Dean is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER and treat him like their own personal woobie have ruined it for the rest of us.***
You are so right Rachel. Samfans are clearly much more discerning since they favor the much less interesting and attractive character. They are gentle sweet souls just like their Sammy who never, ever does anything wrong, is completely without flaws, is purely a victim in every way possible and holds no responsibility for any conflict. I can see why y’all love him so.
Seriously – you are so right. A few nutcases have been taken in by Jensen’s pretty face and forgotten that Dean is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER and treat him like their own personal woobie have ruined it for the rest of us.
The sad part is, Kripke’s a bit of a moron and tends to write for this small, but vocal, group, and the rest of us have to watch the crap that comes out. I hope he ignores the vitriol that will come Bobby’s way. In fact, I hope he ignores them all and just writes his damn story and stops catering to these whiny fans.
These comments are a real eye opener and go a long way towards explaining why Sam is hated by so many. Its because he is sometimes MEAN to DEAN. Its the biggest sin a character can commit on supernatural and a surefire way too turn the 25 or so rabid Dean girls against you. Look out Bobby. You gone done it now.
What I want to know is where was Bobby this whole year while Sam was treating Dean like dirt and insulting him, putting him down and just generally treating him like a half-brained idiot?
Wanna bet Sam’s never going to be getting any highly insulting speeches about his behavior from Bobby or anyone else they might hold any weight from. The only person who might say anything is Dean and naturally he’ll be painted as in the wrong and “mean to Sam” for doing so.
Sympathetic, “good” third parties never belittle Sam’s feelings or his pain or his brain or anything about him.
“Also regarding the claims that deanfans were outraged by Mystery Spot because there was less Dean, I have no idea where you are getting that from. I thought that episode was very well liked, I certainly quite loved it.”
I liked Mystery Spot just fine and so did nearly all my Dean loving friends.
I never understand the complaint that we don’t know what Sam did, we don’t know how he feels, how he felt, etc. And we know in detail what Dean did? No we don’t, not really. He gave a very brief summation in the 4 to 6 minutes he brought it up this whole season but guess what? We really didn’t find out more about what Dean did in Hell and we didn’t find out more about Dean felt about the aftermath, with his memories. No more than we did with Sam.
I’m going to go up to just episode 4.14, which was where the show took it’s second hiatus.
In no way do I claim it to be a total summation but it’s mainly just to show that yes, I do believe we have gotten to see and hear what is going on with Sam.
In Lazarus Rising – with the final scene between Sam and Ruby we found out he and Ruby had been hanging out for quite some time(taking it back to the motel room scene, we discovered at the very least she was quite comfortable hanging around half naked in his motel room). Earlier on we also got some of Sam’s feelings in the motel room, talking to Dean after
In Metamorphosis, just two episodes later – we saw Dean find out what Sam was doing, which in turn gave Sam the opportunity to argue his side, which he did in two, count ‘em, TWO, rather lengthy speeches(in the motel room and outside the car), telling us how he felt and so on. And then a third later on where he vows he’s going to give it up, for HIMSELF, ’cause he’s just tough like that.
Now let’s see in those first 4 episodes what did we find out about Dean’s time in Hell….erm…nothing. There was a brief 1 second long flashback of sound and light in Lazarus Rising. When it comes to why he pulled out of Hell, not much different, Castiel gave little real info, just very cryptic statements and some threats.
In Are You There God….Dean talked about how he felt being pulled out by an angel, he didn’t understand it, couldn’t see why it would happen to him and didn’t believe it was necessarily anything particularly good(hmmm….Dean was right). Sam thought it was a good thing and said Dean had to admit it was real now(as Sam had believed and Dean hadn’t).
In In The Beginning – that was very little about Dean personally – that was about him learning about his family and about Sam. It was also about him learning stuff Sam had been keeping from him for almost a year prior to his going to Hell. But in his interactions with his family members we do get to see his feelings about them.
In point of fact it shows Dean to be a forgiving person who is more concerned about the well-being of his family then with whether or not they live up to some image he has of them. Because he clearly still loved his mother dearly after this episode despite what he found out. And even Sam, he finds out Sam’s been lying and sneaking around but he still tells him what happened. Which thus kind of puts to lie everything Bobby is saying in this clip, even if we didn’t have 4 seasons worth of other episodes to do so.
In Metamorphosis, along with the internal, emotional Sam stuff from Sam’s side already discussed, despite finding out Sam had been lying to him from the minute he got back and hanging out with a demon – Dean told him about that experience, told him their mom had been from a hunting family, told him about her deal(which in turn would be why Sam “slipped” up and accidently revealed he already knew the part Dean hadn’t gotten to yet – the demon blood dripping, thus he is caught in another lie).
In episode 5 – Mainly a standlone but Dean mentioned he felt like he’d gotten a second chance to do some good. We also found out Sam had gone to see Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull while Dean was in Hell.
In episode 6 – they used Dean’s fears for laughs and they were mainly just funny setpieces as opposed to anything very deep, but at the end we discover, through his interaction with Hallucination!Lilith, that he has been repressing memories of Hell, which would explain why he was infected by the ghost sickness.
In episode 7, we find out more of Sam’s feelings about his powers, we see him react to the angels and how they treat him, we see how this affects him. Right in the moment, as it’s happening. We see how Sam feels about it and what it does to his faith.
In episode 8, we learn more about his state of his mind due to his reaction the wishing well and what his wish would be(Lilith’s head on a plate). At the end of the episode, Dean admits(on his own, he wasn’t caught, he just felt bad about lying to Sam earlier when he asked what he remembered) he wasn’t telling him the truth at the beginning of the episode when he said he didn’t remember Hell, but that he just can’t talk about it.
In episode 9, we get actual FLASHBACKS to what Sam did on his summer vacation. Quite a few minutes worth of flashbacks, as he’s explaining his feelings and choices during that time to Dean and why he’s doing what he’s doing now – who by the way listens quite non-judgementally and who for the rest of the two episodes is fairly civil to Ruby thus showing he’s trying to meet Sam halfway. So yeah, lots of stuff about Sam in that episode.
In episode 10 – Dean shows discomfort when Hell is mentioned to him by Anna and at the end of the episode, they take about 2 minutes to have Dean emotionally reveal to Sam the basics about his time in Hell – how long he was there(40 years), that he was tortured and that he broke(after 30 years of continuous torture) and ended up torturing other souls.
In episode 11 – We find out Dean’s been running them ragged working cases in an attempt to keep his mind off his memories and that Dean feels a connection to both sides of the case, the victims and the perpetrators, and that he sees himself as worse than an animal for what he did in Hell after 30 years of torture. He is angry at himself, there are no tears. It is the first time he has talked about it in over a month within the show’s timeline, since he first mentioned it at the end of 4.10. Makes a grand total of twice.
In episode 12 – Ruby shows up, tells Sam “oceans of people will die”, this still does not convince Sam to do what she wants him to do(which she also mentioned crypically in episode 10). We see that Sam is very much affected by the events of this episode, much as Dean was in episode 11. Sam vaguely makes a comment to Dean about “cutting off the head of the snake” Dean replies yeah but this snake will just grow a thousand more, that it’s a long haul. This life either ends bloody or ends sad. Sam doesn’t like this answer, so Sam goes to Ruby at the end, rather than sharing a quiet drink with Dean to talk it out, says he doesn’t want to be doing this when he’s 60(as the old magicians where the one had finally ended up old and alone despite doing the “right” thing, no reward).
Episode 13 – mainly about Sam’s memories of one high school they went to, and they tied it into what he is experiencing now. A big question being “Is Sam happy?” Which ties back into the previous episode.
Episode 14 – Dean discovers Sam has been lying and sneaking around. A siren uses this to get Dean alone(though funnily enough it’s Sam who pushes Dean off on the FBI guy so he can do the “important stuff” and screw the female doctor) and tricks him into “swapping spit” by sharing a drink with him thus infecting him.
Sam then is also infected after the siren gets Dean to hold him still and they are both told by the siren to get their feelings off their chest(he does not tell them what to say) before fighting to the death over who gets to be with him – Dean reveals he knows Sam’s lying to him again, he wants to feel like they are partners again who have each other’s backs, his tone is sad and regretful. Sam reveals he’s sneaking around on Dean because he believes Dean is weak and afraid, his tone is demeaning and superior. Dean wins the fight but Bobby shows up before it comes to the Siren’s ordered conclusion – death for the loser.
We’ve gotten plenty on Sam’s feelings, it’s not all pretty but it’s been there and it’s been there throughout the season.
Jen, I think you’re forgetting a few things when it comes to the screentime issue, namely that more screentime doesn’t necessarily imply a larger part of the storyline, it depends an awful lot on what is done with that time. I think you’re right that Sam has had less screentime than Dean this season, but much of what we see with him is packed with character development and plot to the point where it’s almost an overload – and a lot of fun to watch.
Second, you’ve got to look at what’s best for the plot as a whole. Sam’s storyline has been kept very deliberately murky for the entire season to pack a wallop of a punch here at the end. And, as Chuck stated, the blood drinking is definitely unsympathetic. The more we’ve learned about what Sam’s been doing, the darker and less pure his story has become (which I’m enjoying, personally, as I love a tragic hero). Based on what we’ve learned already, I see nothing to suggest to me that Sam doesn’t have other, even worse, secrets he’s still keeping. As a Sam fan, I can see why you would be annoyed by a perceived lesser standing for him, but as a fan of the show, I hope you can appreciate how much more epic and dramatic the storytelling is by revealing it in this way, rather than by playing it straight.
The DVD commentary for ItB was leaked last week. I’m not giving any links, but if you want to see it, it was up on Youtube last I knew. Kripke does indeed state that he needed Dean to learn the truth (or as much of it as Castiel knew) on his own.
“Jen thanks for proving my point that samgirls are just as ranty and never satisfied as you accuse deangirls of being. Oh? Was that a generalization that you made? Funny how when you do it, it’s fair comment but when someone does it back to you it’s a sign of evil.”
You know what. You’re right. I hate generalizations, and I try not to make them, but it’s not easy. I apologize. I don’t think I made any that implied that anyone else was dumb, or being less than sincere, which is what I objected to in your posts, but I may be wrong, and if I am, I apologize again.
I’m not sure why I need to defend my choices to you, but if you really want to know, I’m choosing to clock Sam’s screen time because it seems like he has been underrepresented this season, yet if you dare to say that to someone, they claim you’re lying. So I want numbers to give them. As far as the other characters screen time, if that’s what you meant, I’m choosing to only compare Sam’s screen time to Dean’s because they are the only two main characters. They’re the ones the story is about. If you feel like things have been explained adequately for your needs, more power to you. I feel the opposite, and I’m not alone in that opinion.
I don’t believe I ever said there was anything wrong with liking Castiel. I like him myself, when he’s not being a jerk. What I object to are the people who want to see him replace Sam. Yes, people actually have said that. No, I’m not making it up, but I know you’ll think I am. Castiel is now an important character in at least this portion of the story, and I don’t mind if he sticks around. I don’t particularly want any more episodes that revolve solely around him or his vessel, but him continuing to exist on the show doesn’t bother me in the least. As long as he’s not replacing anyone.
“Kripke explains it in great detail on the DVD commentary. Basically he says that Dean needed to find out what happened to Sam on his own and the impact of those revelations was more powerful for the audience because Sam wasn’t there. Make of that, what you will.
“Kripke explains it in great detail on the DVD commentary. Basically he says that Dean needed to find out what happened to Sam on his own and the impact of those revelations was more powerful for the audience because Sam wasn’t there. Make of that, what you will.
The DVD commentary you speak of, I’m assuming that’s the British/European half-season set? I guess it would have to be, since there’s no other DVD set out. That’s interesting, and that’s the first I’ve heard of Kripke commenting on it. I can’t speak for other Sam fans, or fans in general, but that only makes it worse. At least they finally gave us a straight answer. Too bad it’s one that doesn’t help the situation any.
“I think you’re a bunch of hypocrites because you do exactly what you excoriate other people for doing and then act all shocked and innocent when someone calls you on it. ”
You are entitled to think whatever you want. Like I said before, I don’t believe I ever called anyone scheming, or less than intelligent, but if I’m wrong about that, I’ll apologize again. If I gave the impression that I think that my opinion is automatically fact, or more important that someone else’s, I apologize for that too. That wasn’t my intention.
What one fan says is no more irrefutable truth than what another says. As far as the truth I was referring to, since you’ve been so quick to point out where I myself fall into the mold of Samfans, perhaps you’d be fair enough to do the same for yourself? I’ll leave that up to you.
Bobby FTW! Now go yell at Sam too! Both need a good kick up theirs.
Funny how that has riled everyone up because it has only gotten me much more excited for the finale.
You guys are hilarious. The Sam fans think the show favors Dean and it’s the “Dean and Cas show” and “everything’s about Dean”, and the Dean fans think Sam gets away with everything and he’ll even get Cas and “everything’s about Sam”. You all rant about how your favorite brother is being treated so badly.
I’m impartial when it comes to the brothers and I think they’re both wonderful and flawed, and that both have been given equal focus throughout the series.
Rach and danielle, I am SO with you on the Cas front!
“When you’ve got opposing sides that are as lopsidedly represented as they are here, you can’t put your statistics that way, because if even one person from the smaller side chooses to be agressive, or vitriolic, it makes it automatically seem like more Sam fans are mean to other fans than Dean fans, when that’s not the case.”
Well… it is, though. It’s a greater proportion of that population that chooses to be aggressive and vitriolic. Wasn’t that the initial question… whether the Dean fans were more vitriolic and insane? That’s a judgment about trends in a population, and an absolute number tells you nothing about whether Dean fans are more likely to be vitriolic than Sam fans. It simply tells you that there are more Dean fans… which, again, most people already know.
Bobby is a flawed hero much in the sense John Winchester was, Dean is, or Sam is.
There is no reason to hate Bobby unless you hate all the characters.
Dean has said worse to Sam, Sam worse to Dean, John to Sam, Sam to John, John to Dean and so on.
It’s okay to disagree with what he’s saying but to outright say he needs to die is disingenious unless you judge all the characters that have been the protagonists on the show in the same manner and I honestly don’t see that from many of the comments.
There is a certain amount of perspective lacking in the fandom.
***If you want to know about yourself personally; According to what I saw you had 8 comments. Of those 8 I classified 2 as vitriolic, and Dean supporting. I counted one as vitriolic and clearly supporting neither brother. 2 as slightly vitriolic and supporting Dean. One as slightly vitriolic and unclear as to who it supported. One as not vitriolic and supporting Dean, and one as not vitriolic and unclear as to support. In my quoted statistic I only counted posts that were clearly vitriolic. If I’d wanted to pad out the numbers, I could have, by changing one of your posts to a Dean supporting one, since that’s clearly where your affections lie, or changing one that I only viewed as slightly vitriolic to a yes in that column. But I was trying to be as honest as I could, so I didn’t do that.***
Wow you really do believe you are the final arbiter of all opinion in this fandom don’t you?
Yes, there goes my perspective again. *sigh*
***Cas girls are so much easier to please. We’re happy when he gets more than a 3-minute scene.***
Danielle, I think I love you! Thank you for giving me some perspective.
Jen thanks for proving my point that samgirls are just as ranty and never satisfied as you accuse deangirls of being. Oh? Was that a generalization that you made? Funny how when you do it, it’s fair comment but when someone does it back to you it’s a sign of evil.
Also if you’re so interested in all the other characters on the show, why the need to clock Sam’s screentime? Might I suggest that if you actually paid attention to what Sam was doing on screen instead of watching the clock, you might have understood what was going on in his head better this season? Yes, yes, I know I’m evil and wicked and being mean to you. Whatever. If you can dish it out, you can take it, just like I can.
But number of minutes of screentime aside, I think where Sam’s at right now has been a well thought out and organic arc based on the traumas he has suffered over the years mixed in with particular character traits and feelings he’s had towards Dean (both positive and negative) since the beginning of the show. Nothing he has done has shocked me or left me scratching my head.
Also regarding the claims that deanfans were outraged by Mystery Spot because there was less Dean, I have no idea where you are getting that from. I thought that episode was very well liked, I certainly quite loved it.
It’s the only samcentric episode that didn’t kind of bore me until When the Levee Breaks. I also have to add that while I watched the show mainly for Dean during the first three seasons, Sam is finally becoming an intriguing character in his own right. I really hope Kripke doesn’t chicken out with the redemption stuff and sweeps it all away with a simple “it was all because of the demon blood.” That would be doing the character a great disservice in my opinion, but this is definitely something the writers have done in the past when it comes to conflict between the brothers, so I’m not holding my breath.
And I know this is another trait of the oh-so-evil-deangirl, but I love Castiel almost as much as I love Dean and I really hope the show continues to focus on that relationship next year as well. Though judging by what they have done to the Dean-Bobby relationship (which I used to love) I suspect, Cas too will be browbeating Dean in defense of Sam by the end of the season premier next season. Which is when I will be tune out for the last time.
Regarding ratings and quality of programming, well yes obviously some really crap stuff gets good ratings. I’m not sure what your point is unless it’s to suggest that the quality of this season being subpar is some kind of universal truth. Which obviously is a subjective opinion. I thought the first third of this season was the best this show has to offer, then it kind of lost it’s way in the middle, and I can’t really judge the last third of the season until after next week. But even if I love everything else in the finale, I’m still going to hate the part of the Bobby-Dean scene in this clip.
***It’s easy to like things when they go your way. ***
Yes it certainly is which would explain why you say you loved the first three seasons. But again, I’m not sure what the point is of that obvious statement.
***Couple that with the fact that they still haven’t given us a satisfactory answer as to WHY Sam was cut from that episode***
Kripke explains it in great detail on the DVD commentary. Basically he says that Dean needed to find out what happened to Sam on his own and the impact of those revelations was more powerful for the audience because Sam wasn’t there. Make of that, what you will.
***Personally, I’m not going to call you a bad fan for loving Dean to the exclusion of all other characters. That’s now how I choose to view the show, but you’re allowed to watch however you want, just as I am. I do, however, think that your fan to fan relating could use some refining. Calling fellow fans disingenous, half-brained, and claiming that their arguments have no merit simply because they do not agree with what you think, or what you see in the show is not a good way to communitcate with other people.***
Fine let me be more clear. I think you’re a bunch of hypocrites because you do exactly what you excoriate other people for doing and then act all shocked and innocent when someone calls you on it.
***So you’re saying that, if Bobby had chosen to chew Dean out about anything else in the exact same manner, you’d be okay with it? What if he’d chosen to express those same opinions in a vastly different way? Maybe a kind, quiet sit down to gently point out the way he saw it all? ***
Well I certainly would have been less angry without the “boo hoo,” the “whiny baby” and the you’re a princess because you don’t realize that families can’t always bake you apple pies, statement. Because you know, that’s a lesson Dean needs to learn what with how loving and supportive and appreciative Dean’s family has always been towards him. That boy sure needs to understand the meaning of sacrificing his own petty feelings for the good of the family doesn’t he? Oh that’s right, I forgot, he was being selfish and self-absorbed for being affected by the nightmares and the guilt over what happened to him in hell and missed Sam’s giant woobie pain that was manifesting itself in him having sex, going to movies and apparently moving on with his life, when Dean first got back. I take it all back, Dean deserves everything he gets, the wimpy PTSD-sufferer that he is.
***And you totally glossed over my point that maybe what Bobby wanted to accomplish was to make Dean angry, to give him the fire to fight. What better way to achieve that at the moment than to bring up Sam and the way he’s handling things?***
I didn’t gloss over this point, I just didn’t notice it. But since you asked again, I’ve never been of the Dean-needs-to-abused-to-function school of thought that is so popular with the deanhaters who use it to justify Sam and John’s behavior towards him. Then use it as an excuse to cheer on anyone who they believe is reinforcing their opinion and taking Dean down a couple of pegs just ‘cuz he’s more popular than their fave. That really is what all this comes back to as far as I can tell.
There were any number of ways that Bobby could have encouraged Dean without calling him names and setting up false arguments. Just because Kripke decided to pander to the samfans who have been whining all season that dean gets too much attention, doesn’t make it good or logical characterization for Bobby.
***The truth stings, does it?***LOL! No it really doesn’t. Though I’m really not sure what truth you are referring to. I’m guessing it’s that if an opinion is uttered by a samfan it is irrefutable fact and if something is uttered by a deanfan it is deluded ranting and only worthy or ridicule. But that’s the way it’s always been in this fandom so c’est la vie.
I don’t have the numbers to hand, but I could get them. I don’t agree with that way of couching the statistics though, because it won’t accurately represent the state of things. When you’ve got opposing sides that are as lopsidedly represented as they are here, you can’t put your statistics that way, because if even one person from the smaller side chooses to be agressive, or vitriolic, it makes it automatically seem like more Sam fans are mean to other fans than Dean fans, when that’s not the case. It’s just that there are so few Sam fans represented in the thread, that it’s very easy to tip the numbers the wrong way. If you analyze only the posts that choose to be agressive, then at least you’re fairly distributing the blame. If the two sides were more evenly represented, then both ways would be fair.
How they felt about what Bobby did had nothing to do with it. And the majority of what I considered vitriolic posts weren’t criticizing other people for what they thought of what Bobby did. In fact, in at least a few of them, Bobby’s name wasn’t even mentioned. I went by what they stated, if they said they were a Dean girl, or a Sam girl, and if that didn’t make it clear, which it did in most cases, I went by two things. Who the tone of their post indicated they were supporting AND who they were directing their ire at. So if the tone of the post indicated they were a Sam fan, and the post was directed at a Dean fan, that’s two indications that they’re a Sam fan. If it wasn’t clear from that point of view which side they supported, I marked them down as supporting neither side. As I said before, I counted my own posts in those numbers, and I counted myself on the Sam side, obviously.
If you want to know about yourself personally; According to what I saw you had 8 comments. Of those 8 I classified 2 as vitriolic, and Dean supporting. I counted one as vitriolic and clearly supporting neither brother. 2 as slightly vitriolic and supporting Dean. One as slightly vitriolic and unclear as to who it supported. One as not vitriolic and supporting Dean, and one as not vitriolic and unclear as to support. In my quoted statistic I only counted posts that were clearly vitriolic. If I’d wanted to pad out the numbers, I could have, by changing one of your posts to a Dean supporting one, since that’s clearly where your affections lie, or changing one that I only viewed as slightly vitriolic to a yes in that column. But I was trying to be as honest as I could, so I didn’t do that.